8. Dr. Ben Samuel
Creator's Cafe Episode 8. Dr. Ben Samuel: Sculpting the Possibility Space with host Jessica Payne of Kika Labs
Dr. Ben Samuel and I talk his performances on Hulu and Netflix, how he is crafting the future of storytelling by having AI and humans build worlds together.
Watch for 8B's bonus episode where we dive into the difference between styles of AI generation of and the shifts we need to keep AI storytelling a diverse and inclusive landscape.
Listen on your favorite podcast app here
Creator's Cafe Bonus Episode 8B. Dr. Ben Samuel: Breaking Down AI Storytelling with host Jessica Payne of Kika Labs
Show Notes:
Dr. Ben Samuel and I talk his performances on Hulu and Netflix, how he is crafting the future of storytelling by having AI and humans build worlds together.
Watch for 8B's bonus episode where we dive into the difference between styles of AI generation of and the shifts we need to keep AI storytelling a diverse and inclusive landscape.
Dr. Ben Samuel is an actor, improvisor, game designer and developer, and a recently tenured assistant professor of Computer Science at the University of New Orleans. As an actor, Ben starred in Hulu's first scripted series, "Battleground" where the New York Times said he was the best reason to watch the show. He was a breakout audience favorite in the reality show "Dating Around." The AP said he was adored and both The Times and Wired praise his likability and compare him to Danielle Radcliffe as "Harry Potter."
In his work as an interactive game designer, Ben is building the platorms that will shape the future of storytelling. His game Bad News is an AI social simulation blended with live improvised performance. He created the social physics engine Ensemble. His social simulation game Prom Week made Richard Evans, the AI lead of Sims 3s say the "characters in Prom Week are capable of doing things that Sims couldn't even dream of."
And his current project Bad News combines AI social simulation and world generation with live improvised interaction. His team has presented Bad News at SlamDance film Festival, the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, toured it internationally, and they won the Audience Choice Award at Indicade Game Festival, one of the largest independent gaming festivals.
Follow:
IG: @Progresspian | IMDB | LinkedIn
NY Times Article on him in Hulu's "Battleground"
Bad News game
"Dating Around" AP Interview
"Prom Week" game
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Creator's Cafe with Jessica Payne of Kika Labs
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Theme Music
Our theme music is composed and performed by Kyle deTarnowsky.
Transcript:
Jessica
Welcome to Creators Cafe. I'm your host, Jessica Payne. I'm a performer, performance coach and multi-hyphenate creator. I'm going to be bringing you conversations with some of my favorite creators where we talk about the sublime and the specifics of the creative journey. So grab a drink, get cozy. Let's go.
My guest, Dr. Ben Samuel, is an actor, improviser, game designer and developer and a recently tenured assistant professor of computer science at the University of New Orleans. As an actor, Ben starred in Hulu's first scripted series, Battleground, where the New York Times said he was the best reason to watch the show. Ben is also a breakout reality TV star from the show dating around where he was an audience favorite in his work as an interactive game designer. Ben is building the platforms that will shape the future of storytelling. He has a game called Bad News that is an A.I. social simulation blended with live improvised performance. If you've ever played Sims, Richard Evans, the A.I. lead of Sims three, said of another of Ben's games, The characters in Prom week are capable of doing things that Sims couldn't even dream of. In this episode, I focus on the main pillar projects that Ben has worked on. But if you're a passionate nerd like me and you want to know about the bright spots of the future of AI and storytelling, I'm releasing a bonus episode where Ben and I dive into the difference between different styles of A.I. generation. How that affects what comes out in the storytelling and the shifts that we need to keep A.I. storytelling a diverse and inclusive landscape. So I encourage you to check out the bonus episode. But right now, let's dive into my conversation with Dr. Ben Samuel. Welcome to Creators Café Terrace Shares. So Dr. Ben Samuel.
Ben
Please call me. Call me Ben.
Jessica
Most of the time. So congratulations, first of all, Doctor. And you also recently got tenure. I know.
Ben
I did. Thank you so much.
Jessica
So, first off, what are you drinking? Oh.
Ben
You know, just to keep it simple, just a a drip coffee with, uh, with milk and sugar.
Jessica
Excellent. And delicious.
Ben
And yourself?
Jessica
Yeah. I've got an iced mocha from Dialog, our friendly neighborhood cafe that I adore.
Ben
Thank you.
Ben
Dialog.
Jessica
Okay, so you do so many things in addition, and part of it being what you do for tenure. Yeah, I was tenured. Can you talk about maybe some of the titles of jobs that you've had over the years and or things that you identify as as a creator?
Ben
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm glad that you're kind of giving me the out of over the years because my.
Ben
My identity has sort of shifted, you know, from from.
Ben
Moment in my life to another. So I currently I am an associate professor of computer science, as we just discussed, but no one is more surprised than me that that is where I'm currently finding myself kind of growing up, I was definitely very much so excited about theater. Did a lot of community theater self-identify as an actor primarily, but was always like into.
Ben
Computers, certainly into video games specifically.
Ben
So when I got to college, I double majored in computer science and theater arts, try to keep as many doors open as possible following my bliss as much as I possibly could, filling my life with things that brought me joy. And then after undergrad, after double majoring, got a graduate degree in theater, pursuing acting specifically and like primarily identified as just like a, you know, a normal actor, like scripted theater.
Ben
And then after getting my theater graduate degree, I moved down to Los Angeles to live. The actor's dream definitely was not identifying as a computer scientist basically at all by that point.
Jessica
Oh, interesting. Okay.
Ben
And when I got to L.A., you know, I had done a little bit of improv, like growing up, but never really identified as being particularly good at it, but ended up joining an improv theater in in Westwood, the ultimate improv theater, which is sadly no longer with us, but ended up really falling in love with the art form of improv.
Ben
There. And then, you know, again, to my surprise, found myself doing a lot more improv than scripted theater or film. And so sort of began to identify myself as an improviser primarily. And then through that theater, I had the good fortune of kind of falling in line with some very, very talented people, including folks that or filmmakers. And so through that process, I ended up becoming part of a television.
Ben
Pilot that.
Ben
Eventually got picked up by Hulu. And so then I so then I started identifying as a as a filmmaker.
Ben
Or as a television or a streaming actor or whatever term you want to use.
Ben
But but then I, I also sorry, were going all over the place here during my theater graduate program. I again, by that point, even though I had a B.S. in computer science, I was identifying as a performer, I was identifying as an actor. But my final quarter of my theater grad program, there was a new professor who had just joined that computer science faculty who was teaching a course on interactive storytelling.
Ben
And I get like, I felt that I had hung up that badge. I felt that I was like, done with that side of my life. But my theater advisor had met this new faculty member, Michael Matas, and my theater advisor Patti Gallagher said, You should take this class. You should take the interactive storytelling class. I did change my life, moved to Los Angeles, did all that improv stuff, but also like apply to the Ph.D. program right away so that I could do more interactive storytelling.
Ben
Wow. Got in and then went and did that program and and that kind of set me up the.
Ben
Trajectory that is is where I am now. So, yeah, I don't know. Titles, actor, improviser or scientist. Game game designer or game developer. Yeah.
Jessica
I perfect. I love it. Okay. Okay, great. So let's start with actor because that's how I met you. And people might have seen your work. I know other guests on this show have told me they loved your work on shows. So you are well known actually.
Ben
For a charitable definitions of well.
Jessica
In certain circles, as they say. So your first kind of breakout role wound up being this big role in the first scripted Hulu series. Yes. That wasn't just Hulu buying someone else's TV show. So can you tell us about that? And just as a side note, The New York Times said you were the reason to watch this show.
Jessica
We watched this show through your eyes and it's wonderful. And even in the trailer, I laughed out loud. Four times and they were all because of you, you know. So it's just a delight and such a charming interpretation of that character. So tell us about what that show was and what your experience was like.
Ben
Oh, my gosh. Absolutely. So, so so the show is called Battleground. And as you say, it was Hulu's first original scripted and show. Up until that point, they were just showing other people's shows like these days, like Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, like are making a ton of shows. But it.
Ben
Was one of the first it was historically.
Ben
Significant. Yeah. And and I played a character named Ben Warner on that show. The show is a of a dramedy in a mockumentary style format that follows a political campaign team trying to get a candidate elected for a Wisconsin state Senate. And my character Ben is sort of a volunteer. The first episode of the show is his first day on the job.
Ben
And, you know, we we kind of learn the world of a, you know, political campaign team, as you say, through his eyes. And he admires the head of the, you know, campaign attack. Davis very, very much so. And sort of like grows up a lot, like learning like, you know, how you know what it means to be an adult, what it means to make things change.
Ben
But then vice versa, like Tagg, I think, learns a lot about Ben, who's coming into the situation with maybe you might call a naive optimism that Tak once had but has since lost. And Ben kind of helps remind Ptak like why he got into this profession, like in the first place, and really believing in a candidate so that the two of them are good for each other.
Ben
And and then also there's another volunteer that Ben falls in love with.
Ben
Yeah, well, they won't they situation although although not really because one of the.
Ben
Neat conceits of the show is there are talking head moments like a confessional moments. Yeah. But instead of the confessionals just being like, oh, they're getting pulled aside and you know, commenting on what just happened. The conceit is that the documentary that is being filmed has like been released. Some number of years later, and now they're recording the people who are in the documentary watching the documentary.
Ben
So like five Years in the future has allowed. Yeah. And they're like reflecting back. So you actually know the state of many of the characters, but it was a run. Yeah. And you asked what my experience being on it was and I just, I, I know this might sound hyperbolic, but it is without question one of the greatest experiences of my entire life.
Jessica
Oh, that's so fantastic. Why is. Why is that so?
Ben
I'm so, so many reasons. One, I mean, I guess the biggest one is like the people like, yeah, every, you know, cast member, the director, all of the ads, everyone in production, like everybody was just so emotionally invested. Everybody cared very deeply about the work. And it was just it felt really, really it as did I. And so it felt really good to just be working with a gigantic team of people who all cared so deeply about making something, as, I don't know, as high quality as we possibly could.
Ben
We were filming on location in Madison, Wisconsin, so it had a little bit of a like summer camp vibe to it. Like we were all outside of our normal environments and we were able to kind of create a community and culture that was unique to that film set and unique to the filming, the production, the, the energy on set was, I think, a really beautiful blend of We Are Here to work like we're here to do a job.
Ben
And so everybody was taking it very seriously. And yet there was also, like everyone recognized that we were living the dream. Like everyone recognized that we were like, Oh, we got into acting, we got into film to do this. And now we've been blessed with the opportunity to actually do it. So there was like an air of gratitude and air of.
Ben
Levity.
Ben
And like everyone, like laughing and joking and it just kind of all of that together just created an experience that was.
Ben
Like, I had high.
Ben
Hopes, I had high expectations going into it, and and all of them were surpassed.
Jessica
That's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I think we all, whenever we're on a job like that, I'll hope that that turns out that way. And it's so beautiful when it actually does. And and you know it in the moment. Not just on reflection.
Ben
Yes. Yes.
Jessica
It's so rare that, you know.
Ben
This is the this.
Jessica
Is the good time. Yeah. Yeah.
Ben
That's that's so. Well then. So yeah. Because there are certainly I'm sure we all have had those moments of like, oh man, that moment when I was really stressed and unhappy every day, actually, I loved that. And like.
Ben
This was I mean, certainly there are moments of like stress and, and there are a lot of difficult moments. But like, despite them, like, we could tell that we were we were enjoying we were in the middle of something really special.
Jessica
That's really neat. The other project that people might know you from in the TV world, he's already laughing. If you're listening, I wish you could see him blessing. It's adorable. This man is a reality TV star who is widely beloved for his earnest heart, as he should be. Tell us all about it.
Ben
Okay. Yeah.
Ben
Yeah, I guess.
Ben
I am a reality TV star. You know, again, for for charitable definitions of star.
Jessica
So that's me pulling from AP. That's not me making this up.
Ben
You I the the the that that was.
Ben
Actually getting interviewed by the Associated Press was a like a I don't know like.
Ben
Like, like a monument. Yeah. Yeah. I like his I love the AP. Like I read it every morning. I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, and now I'm talking to them.
Ben
So, yes, I was on a show called Dating Around, which is a reality TV show put out by Netflix. I am on season two, episode two, and I and I know I know what you might be thinking, what folks might be thinking. Oh, a reality show. Oh, how.
Ben
Trashy, how what, what a guilty pleasure and.
Ben
Show Find.
Ben
Perhaps a little bit Who am I to say.
Ben
It isn't. But I will say that I think dating around does something really special. I think as reality dating shows go, I think it is actually on the classier end. Okay. The way that it works, kind of the premise of the show is like a typical dating show there. You know, any given episode focuses on one person. So I was the star of my episode and I go on dates with five different, you know, remarkable, wonderful, intelligent, funny, clever, beautiful young women.
Ben
And and so that that is all, I guess, par for the course. But the thing that is different about dating round is it's not like, oh, I go on date one and then I like talk about how it went and then I go and date you and three and then at the end I give someone a rose like it's, it's not like that.
Ben
All of the dates are interwoven with each other. So the entire episode is essentially me going on one date meeting my date outside the restaurant, getting a drink at the bar, getting dinner.
Ben
Walking down the street, getting a drink after.
Ben
Dinner. And so the chronology of the episode just kind of goes in that beginning and end. But if you some really, I think, beautiful camerawork, it will like, you know, my date will ask me a question and then the camera will like, do a closeup of me and like, I'll answer and then the next shot will be like a zoomed out shot and now I'm like talking to a different person either on one of my other dates.
Ben
Right?
Ben
And for me, this is my interpretation of it. I think that what the show is commenting on is both in some ways there's almost like almost like a jaded, cynical, like avenue of it, of it's like, oh, the dates, the ritual of dating is so well known and ascribes to such similar patterns that the people on the date are completely interchangeable because people are just going to be asking the same questions every time.
Ben
First dates. Oh man, so superficial. Or like, what a what a joke or whatever. But on the flip side of that, and this is I think honestly what the show leans into even more is I think a really optimistic viewpoint that even though that might be the case to some extent, that first dates do often follow a common pattern, that there is something so incredible and magical and beautiful because even though maybe the words are the same or the questions are the same, everything is being, of course, filtered through the two individuals on that date and the chemistry, the dynamic between them.
Ben
And that is something that is absolutely unique. Every single time you go on a date and being able to kind of see that dynamic change, like back to back to back from shot to shot to shot.
Jessica
Yeah.
Ben
I think really highlights, you know, the the excitement that comes with like eating someone new in spite of the fact that like going on a first date can oftentimes be like a challenging or rough experience. So I, I think it's a message of hope. I think it's a message of optimism.
Jessica
That's really beautiful. Yeah. I didn't think about how having so half of what the format is be so similar. Then what you're highlighting is what is different, which is the humans in the room.
Ben
Exactly.
Ben
Yeah, exactly what I said, but said in a 10th of the time when I.
Jessica
Honestly, I, you know, I'm just sitting here thinking of like that's, that's part of why the, you know, to get really mad. I hear the format of me sitting in the same chair asking similar questions to very different artists. What's special to me is the humans and the how. You know, I, I know a lot of people who are wonderful, successful actors and creatives of lots of types, but they're very different than you and they're, you know, they're different than me.
Jessica
And everyone who sits in the chair brings something special. And it's that that chemistry and that kind of artistic soul signature that so beautiful.
Ben
God, artistic.
Ben
Soul signature. I might borrow that if I mean.
Jessica
It's it's a stealing from something I heard recently that I wish I could quote. I find it from the from the show notes, but it was someone on the podcast on being was speaking. I see. And he talked about the you know what you bring special to the table being your sole signature.
Ben
Like you're a fingerprint a little.
Jessica
And then I think for this format it's kind of taking it of not the whole human necessarily, but how they artistically express themselves is what we're focused on in this arena. Yes. And I think, you know, for me, what makes you really special is your deep love of storytelling and seeing how that love of humanity and interacting with people comes out through your connections.
Jessica
And what what I think is really interesting is when I think of computer scientist, I don't think heart centered lead focused on storytelling. That's just and that's my baggage. So I apologize for judging prejudging, but I think that's why hearing about your projects, which we'll go into in a little bit, is so fascinating to me because you really do come from this storytelling and prioritizing humanity standpoint, and especially with, you know, the SAG after a strike and we've been really talking about I you are an ICE specialist who specializes in storytelling and the humanity of it.
Jessica
Yes. And so just this whole the whole connective thread here for me of you taking these past experiences and then weaving them into your current art that is using the current technology, but for the best is just really exciting and fascinating.
Ben
Thank you.
Ben
I try to lead by example a little bit that this is a false dichotomy as to actually like interweave with each other really, really beautifully, like and.
Jessica
Complement each other in.
Ben
Global. Met each other. Yeah. To be a computer scientist is to in some ways be an artist. It is to be a problem solver. It's to think of creative solutions to things. And if you're building a I mean, my background is specifically in game development, but, but if you're building any piece of software to think of a way to bring something into existence that did not exist before, I mean, that is.
Jessica
That is a creator.
Ben
Yeah, exactly. Absolutely.
Ben
Yeah. And so I.
Jessica
See you belong in this chair for like five reasons.
Ben
You, you. I'm happy that I haven't convinced you otherwise. That's something.
Jessica
So I would love to get into kind of the the meat of the body of your current work and the projects that got you there. Yeah. Can you just tell me what the name of the lab was that you got your PhD in? Because I think that kind of nest for you was such an important part of how you see yourself.
Jessica
And I think it's part of what makes your take on AI and computer science so special and open and then lead us into maybe your project. Bad news, if that makes sense.
Ben
Absolutely. Yeah, I would love to. So. So the lab that I got my PhD in was called the Expressive Intelligence Studio EIC for ICE, as we called it. And so expressive intelligence is a little bit of a play on artificial intelligence, whereas if artificial intelligence is creating a piece of software to perform a task and then you have that has completed expressive intelligence is meant to be creating a piece of software that like expresses itself in some way that meaningfully affects the user or the player, the human, if you will.
Ben
But then the let's call them the player and then engage with that piece of software. And the software itself can meaningfully adapt and change based on that input, produce more output itself, which then affects the user in another way, and thus the system and the player, the human are essentially collaborating with each other to create meaning, to create creative expression.
Jessica
So that's beautiful. How does your project Bad News? Yes. Integrate this story telling with the choose your own adventure aspect of the the improv and letting the player kind of guide the story.
Ben
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Ben
Oh my gosh.
Ben
You just so, so so. So we don't talk about it. So. So maybe let me.
Jessica
Oh, okay. So first of all, tell us what bad news is and all your fancy awards in places that fancy.
Ben
Sure.
Ben
Sure.
Jessica
I'll do some in the bio. But this way we hear from your word. So it's kind of what you value the most. And what's been the most special.
Ben
Awesome. Great. Thank you. So. So, yeah. So bad news is, you know, it's a little hard to pin down what it is. In some ways, it's a computer game. In some ways it's an installation art piece. In some ways it's a piece of life theater. It's sort of all of these things at once. It combines what we call a social simulation with live improvised performance and before, I guess, diving into what it is specifically, it's because it kind of crosses all of these different thresholds.
Ben
We've been very like honored that we've been able to show it in a very wide variety of venues. So that included just like academic computer science conferences. We've presented it at various game festivals. Probably the most notable was the Indie Card Game Festival, which is a large one of the largest independent game festivals in the in the nation, where it won an award.
Ben
It was the Audience Choice Award. Out of thousands of submissions, we won one of TED Awards.
Ben
Wow.
Ben
Very honored about that. But then we've also demonstrated it at film venues. We presented at the Slamdance Film Festival. We were invited to show it at these San Francisco Museum of Modern Art. We've toured it.
Ben
Internationally.
Ben
So so it's a kind of like by being a cross-section of all of these different disciplines, we've been very lucky that we found that it's resonated with artists and with communities across all these different fields and and so the piece itself, again, I guess I mentioned it involves both social simulation and life performance. So before your the piece even begins, if you will, we execute what we call a social simulation.
Ben
So we procedurally generate a fictional small American town by letting the simulation run in the background for 150 years.
Ben
The simulation simulates over 50 years. The actual fair execution lasts maybe like 5 minutes, five, 5 to 10 minutes. And so it generates.
Ben
Like a small town with 300 people, you know, give or take. And in the simulation, we're simulating like like at the beginning, people start a few farmsteads and as the years go by, more people move into the town, the farms grow, people get married to each other, they have children. Those children grow up additional businesses for houses. It gets constructed, people move out of the town, people pass away.
Ben
And so by the end of 150 years, there's all of these different family trees. There's all of this different like family history with each other. There's all these different businesses, and all of that is completely unique for every single playthrough, which is one of the.
Jessica
That's incredible, right? That's that's so cool. It's not just a sims that you let go. It's every time it's a different simulation, a different story. Everyone gets their own story.
Ben
Everyone gets their own town that has all of this, what we call what we.
Ben
Call in the biz emergent.
Ben
Narrative. And that ties in really beautifully with something you mentioned earlier or about, like, I'm going to put my own words on this. Almost the tension between player control versus authorial control. Um, oftentimes if you as an author or a creator try to tell a story, you've got something that you want the player to experience. But the tension of interactive media like this is that the player, of course, is.
Ben
A, an agent of chaos is, is yes. Someone that is going to be.
Ben
Doing things that you as the author might not anticipate. Yeah. And that if you go into it with the mindset of I have a story for them.
Ben
And I want them to try and say.
Ben
It can almost create an adversarial relationship.
Ben
That I don't ascribe to. Like for me.
Ben
My approach to interactive storytelling is like there's a whole shoot of other beautiful mediums.
Ben
There's traditional literature, there's film, there's theater, there's all these things where you, as the author, have complete control, essentially.
Ben
And the consumer or the audience gets to just enjoy it. I think the joy of video games, the joy of interactive media like this, is letting the player experience this world so we create this.
Ben
Sandbox that does not have.
Ben
Any prescriptive narrative. It does not have any like model of an Aristotelian dramatic arc, if you will. And there are other pieces of interactive media that do that, like drama management is an entire field of study storytelling where you try to come up with a computational model of, again, let's say a narrative arc and like looking at, okay, well this is what the player is doing.
Ben
And I, I, the system is like interpreting. I think that the tension is ramping up. Ramping up. Okay, it's time.
Ben
For the climax to rage. And now we're in the.
Ben
Denouement and the system is like mapping action to that and trying to kind of.
Ben
Create, wow. Which is which is fascinating and amazing.
Ben
And I love it. And it's not what we're doing in.
Ben
Bad news at all. So the way that bad.
Ben
News works is so we we generate the simulated how 150 years of history with all these people. And that's when the player starts playing. And I want to set the scene a little bit about the player experience. It's not like played like on your computer or like a traditional computer game is played like on a console, like a PlayStation or Xbox.
Ben
You play it by just sitting down, like at a table or at a desk. And in front of you there is like an iPad, like a tablet, but you don't really eat, you don't like action. It just like displays information. More on that in a moment. And in front of you is like a model theater, like a little like puppet theater with its curtains drawn, closed.
Ben
And that tablet that I mentioned has information about where in the world you currently are an interactive fiction style, if you're familiar with that. So it'll say like, let's say you're at the bank, it'll say you're at the bank. You see a bank teller, you see a customer, you see a gender in the player, speaks their commands out loud.
Ben
So you play the game by talking out loud. So you maybe say, Oh, I speak for the bank teller. And then what happens is that the curtains of that theater are drawn open and sitting across from you is an actor, a live actor who is then embodying that character. And the two of you more or less just engage in real time conversation that the player can more or less say anything that they want to say.
Ben
Some stipulations we can talk about that too, and the actor can also more or less say anything that they want as long as it's in character, where in character is entirely defined by the simulation. So this person that they're embodying, this bank teller in this situation has lived 50 simulated years. They have a simulated history, they have simulated family.
Ben
They also they have their own simulated perception of reality, which may or may not be accurate because there's this whole confidence model of characters memories fading over time. Characters can lie to each other. So like as they're living their lives, they might get just false information and they have mistaken beliefs.
Ben
So.
Ben
So they're the actor and player are more or less just talking. But like the actor needs to adhere to whatever that character believes based on that simulation, portraying it in a way that is truthful to this character, simulated personality.
Ben
And that's the.
Ben
What we call in the game Dev industry. The the core mechanic like like talking to simulated people is what the player primarily does. And the premise of the game or the objective of the game is the player is cast in the role of the county morticians assistant. And so in the game after the simulation runs, we as the game designers.
Ben
Kill someone off. We, we we sadly.
Ben
Make one person pass away and we like we fine tune like who it is. It's someone who is well connected enough in the town that people would know who they are, but not so well connected that like everyone knows them. And we present the description of the deceased to the player as a as a John Doe or a Jane Doe.
Ben
So they know their physical description, but nothing else. The mortician. So the players boss, the players character boss kind of like introduces them to the world, make sure that they're feeling ready to go on this, you know, on this journey. And then when the player is going around speaking to people, they're trying to essentially do two things, like first, identify who the deceased is.
Ben
And then once they're confident, they know who has passed away, identify and locate their next of kin so that they can deliver the eponymous bad news.
Jessica
And this is why it doesn't have that Aristotelian dramatic model necessarily, because if I come in and play one simulation, I might feel very Nancy Drew one day and be extra sleuthing and find the answer very quickly, whereas another day I might run a different simulation and hit a bunch of dead ends.
Ben
Exactly. Yes. Yes.
Ben
So. Oh, my gosh, Jessica, there's so much that I want to say. Yes. So the players like how they decide to approach the experience is like a has a huge difference. And I could tell you stories of people who manage to identify the next of kin within 5 minutes of playing and the.
Ben
Experiences intended.
Ben
To be maybe like 45 minutes to an hour or so.
Jessica
So it feels like a show for many people, but some people find the shortcut.
Ben
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they they speedrun it may be they they finally they and then and then other people like.
Ben
Spend more time in the environment. Like even when they have.
Ben
Leads, they.
Ben
Actively choose to not pursue.
Ben
Them. And just like hawk to random people go into random businesses and kind of like.
Ben
Learn about the history of this town. And that is kind of one of the like artistic statements of the piece is this is a very mundane town, if you will.
Ben
Like every simulated.
Ben
Town is mundane. There are people living their lives, going to work, having families, going, running errands, things like that. But but because of this emergent narrative, there are these things that just naturally arise that are different. Every playthrough star crossed lovers like of like, oh.
Ben
Rival like delis or rival diners. They just happen to be institutions and people like, you know, falling in love across these family lines are.
Ben
Businesses of, you know.
Ben
Oh, this was a long running, you know, family institution. And then like, the son took it over and then it shudders the next year. And now everyone in town is like angry at.
Ben
Them, like none of this is hardcoded. But like, almost always, I mean, always were able to find these narrative salient, these narratively satisfying, like nuggets that we can then surface naturally through the player. Wow. These people And I and so so part of the experience then is both finding these latent narrative nuggets in the simulation and then finding ways in character to kind of naturally bring them up for the player to then choose to pursue or not pursue.
Jessica
So there's that kind of the simulation in itself is presenting you with the emergent narrative. Yes, but then there's free will from the player to decide whether to go straight to the heart of it or explore side quests. But then there's also free will from the the actor who's interpreting it and embodying those characters to decide, okay, I've I've been given this fact list, I'm going to adhere to this, but what things am I going to prioritize and highlight and lean into.
Ben
Just how you have identified it?
Ben
Exactly. Right. Exactly.
Jessica
So cool.
Ben
It. And one one other thing that I want to make sure that gets said is it's a so in the productions of bad news, I have been the actor I've been the. Yeah, but there's another member of the team that is crucial for the experience and we we call him the wizard, kind of like the man behind the curtain all the Wizard of Oz.
Ben
And he's essentially like live coding Python code two in real time. Scour the simulation for those narrative tidbits, for those narrative nuggets.
Ben
And then he's.
Ben
Communicating that to me in time through like a, you know, a Slack channel, basically. Yeah. And so like frequently I am like in character talking to the player, having a real time conversation while.
Ben
Also perceiving.
Ben
What the wizard is like sending me. I also like as the actor, I have like a computer interface that gets populated with all of those things. I was mentioning about the character, his personality and family and history and perception of reality. So there's all of these channels, information happening.
Ben
Concurrently.
Ben
And there's this real time kind of like, yeah, as you say, free will pruning process to decide what information is salient.
Ben
Even though from the player's.
Ben
Perspective it it we want it to feel mostly like they're going on this adventure kind of on their.
Ben
Own. Little do they know that it's this whole, you know, jazz ensemble like it's this whole real time. Everybody, like I or.
Ben
I should just use the metaphor of improv. It's like a little improv team working together to try to create this piece that adheres to our artistic vision of like, as I mentioned, I think I said the self-funded and said the finish, it's a mundane town. Everyone is living their simple lives. But by exploring the town and learning how interconnected everybody is to each other and learning how interconnected they deceased was to his neighborhood or his or her neighborhood family.
Ben
Hmm. We learned that like it's, you know, there's there's an even though it's like a game about death and simple lives, like, there's a lot of beauty and humor and heart and that like behind all of it. And and it's like this whole team, like, working together.
Ben
To create this experience.
Jessica
That's so beautiful. It's very themes from like, It's a Wonderful Life.
Ben
Yeah. Oh, yeah, a little bit. Yeah, yeah.
Jessica
The beauty and the mundane struggle of an average person.
Ben
That's.
Jessica
Yes, in that interconnectedness. That's cool. Also, what a concierge experience that this player gets so much time and attention and really guided through this experience. It's the opposite of a startup. It's the opposite of scalability. Yes. So just to have that attention is so special that that.
Ben
Absolutely. Yeah. No, we we view it as us crafting this very bespoke interactive experience for every single participant, which, you know, is a beauty and a curse is a blessing and a curse. It certainly limits the total number of people that can experience the piece. But I do think believes participants who go through a feeling like they just experience something meaningful and and like, yeah, for the participants, like, like some of the time, would they like, you know, if they find the next of kin right away, we need it very quickly.
Ben
CRAFT Like just notifications are kind of like send them like off the trail And there's been a couple of really like kind of incredible moments that happened from that. And, and then another thing I guess just that has meant a lot to me from the piece is sometimes people go into it, you know, it is a piece of improv.
Ben
And I think frequently people associate improv with comedy. I know they certainly do. And we want the piece to be flexible. We want the piece to adapt to however the participant chooses to engage with it. But we also want there to be a little bit of somberness. We want there to be a little bit of, you know, a meditation on the nature of life and death.
Ben
And so sometimes people will go into it with a very kind of like jokey attitude and again, totally fine know, wrong answer, but but moments that have really, I think, landed with me and the rest of the team is people who have started with that of like light hearted, flippant attitude. And then when they find the next of kin, there's sort of like a dawning realization of like, oh my gosh, like I need to tell this person who like.
Ben
Like is, is just be like when they see you do all the other care and I do all of the characters are spoken with me ten times as ten of the characters.
Ben
And yet the there's a weight that something the experience you know they begin to like recognize and there's been moments where like you know they're they're sitting at this table like I'm just across from them behind this like theater. And they'll be, you know, the character will be like at a bar, for example. And the the players will say, Hey, can we go someplace more private.
Ben
Where we're in a very private place, clearly limited, but like they have on their tablet, Oh, you're at a bar and you see like a dozen other people and they'll say, Yeah, hey, can we maybe like go outside? And then like, the wizard.
Ben
Will like, operate the simulation that like, put them.
Ben
Outside.
Ben
And then they'll like, gather their thoughts, They'll like, gather their energy as they like.
Ben
Have this moment and deliver the bad news. And it oftentimes is an emotion, whole experience for them.
Ben
And and and then, as you know, part of the joy of being in it as an actor is it then becomes an emotional experience for for for my character and like will have this tragic, terrible, beautiful moment of like sharing this information and and then that's the end. Like the curtains.
Ben
Closed. Oh, that's so beautiful. And then and then it will.
Ben
I guess I should say it's not quite the end. Like it's the end of the players involvement, like the interactive experience. But another one of the advantages, I guess like, like another affordances, like another one of the affordances of this being a simulation is that sure, we simulate it. 450 years, and then that's where the player is plopped into the simulation.
Ben
But that doesn't need to be the end of the simulation, and in fact, it isn't.
Ben
Oh, so imagine like.
Ben
You know.
Ben
Classic eighties movie, like, oh, where are they now? Like the Epilog.
Ben
We then run after the end, after they deliver the bad news, we run the simulation for another 30 years into the future and the player can.
Ben
Then check in on all of the people that they met, like all.
Ben
Those people that they met and.
Ben
See how they're doing and follow up on all of the little like storylines and, you know, squabbles that they were involved with or hopes and dreams that they had to find out if they were ever like succeeding them.
Jessica
Wow. It's like a reunion of your favorite show.
Ben
Exactly. Yes. Yes. But. But right then and there. Yeah.
Jessica
And you're really playing with kind of time and space here. Yeah. Really cool. Yeah.
Ben
Yeah.
Jessica
Wow, That's incredible.
Ben
That's the good news.
Jessica
Bad news. Good news about bad news. Okay. Tell me just a little bit about prom week, the one that got this all started.
Ben
Yes. So, so.
Ben
Bad news is my my second award winning.
Ben
Piece of interactive media. All right.
Ben
My my first is a game called Prom Week from.
Ben
Week.
Ben
Is powered by a social simulation called Call Me, also made by myself and some of my colleagues. And one of Camille photos claims to fame is, Richard Evans, who is the lead of the Sims three and The Sims is a big major inspiration for Camille FO and Prom Week. So Richard Evans visited the lab, played prom week and walked away, telling us the characters in prom week are capable of doing things that The Sims couldn't even dream of.
Ben
Wow. And so we are very, very proud of that. I, I, I could go to a lot more.
Ben
Detail and I think The Sims is perhaps inarguably a better game than prom week is. There's an interesting divide of just, you know, powerful.
Ben
Technology does not to.
Ben
More pleasurable like playable.
Ben
Experience and there was a lot that I could talk about there. But, but yeah, like, like we created a system that helped that, that I didn't was it was someone that we admire very much in industry and Richard Evans has, you know, worked on also other projects like black and white, which is famous for its AI. He he works.
Ben
At Google now.
Ben
As like an elite. So he's he's a major voice in the industry, very honored by his kind words and and and that the AI system criminal fellow in some ways helped influence you know laid the groundwork for bad news in several ways. The space project that I mentioned earlier builds off of the A.I. framework of Prime Week. And so that's how we got our start, I suppose.
Jessica
Beautiful and in prime Week was really exploring those character relationships. And that's what got you started.
Ben
Yes, yes, yes.
Ben
Prime week also. Yes. About character relationships. Yeah. Also the player create their own storyline but in concert with in collaboration with the designers and social tendencies of the characters of the characters, the characters aren't going to act outside of their comfort zones. They're going to always adhere based on what makes sense to them, given their social histories with one another or their personal like traits and characteristics.
Ben
But then the player has their own kind of like in-game objectives that may or may not align with the characters want to do so. The act of playing prom week is in some ways massaging the social stage by asking characters to do things that they do want to do, trying to kind of line up your social dominoes so that the social stage changes in such a way such that eventually what the characters do want to do with one another is exactly what the player wants to do.
Jessica
So that's kind of very much like high school, like you just trying to navigate your way through personalities.
Ben
Exactly.
Jessica
Dr. Samuel.
Ben
Ben, Ben, please.
Jessica
I have the chance. I'm going to take it. So I'd like to ask you to give my audience a creator's challenge. So this is something that they could do that's no cost, that they could just do at their house with whatever resources they currently have in a short amount of time. What what would you challenge to do?
Ben
So this is a challenge that.
Ben
I'm saying for them, but really it's a challenge for.
Ben
Myself. Yeah, it's one of connection.
Ben
Okay. One of for me, I often feel maybe.
Ben
Like isolated.
Ben
If I'm like working on a creative project and I can find myself kind of trapped in my own like headspace, like.
Ben
Oh, this is the only way to do it. But I'm feeling stuck, so what can I do?
Ben
So my challenge is spend 10 minutes opening up your phone, going down your contact list, and finding an old friend that you haven't spoken with in a while, giving them a call and finding out how they're doing and what they're up to. And I think that beyond just like the opportunity to connect with an old friend, which is lovely, I think kind of taking yourself out of your like internal headspace of what am I doing and like opening your mind up to like the perspective of what this other person is doing is very small, but I think can have a really profound positive impact of just reminding you like there are many ways to approach
Ben
problems as there are people on the planet. And by being exposed to that, I think it can help you then like return to your own work with that, I don't know, almost like a mental reboot, if you will.
Ben
Yeah.
Ben
Refreshed perspective of cool. Great. Like Lux. How would my.
Ben
Friend, like, address this? Or maybe not even that? Maybe it's.
Ben
More imperceptible, but connecting with an old.
Jessica
Friend with an old friend.
Ben
Specifically, not just telling them what you're doing, but learning what they're working on.
Jessica
I love that I've heard people refer to something like this as taking your your mental phone off of selfie mode and putting it in front on the camera is that you're seeing the world. And so it's literally using your phone to connect with someone and broaden your perspective and just give you a reset.
Ben
Absolutely.
Jessica
That's beautiful.
Ben
Also, that's beautiful. I selfie mode. Yeah.
Jessica
In the very apropos for interactive media. Yes. Which is great. Yeah. And then where can people find you online?
Ben
Oh, probably. Instagram is probably the best way. I don't really use it or check it particularly.
Jessica
So you can't connect with him. I'm a man of mystery.
Ben
You have to find me at the University of New Orleans. Right.
Jessica
And just knock, knock.
Ben
Yeah, but no, if you feel so inclined, you can follow me on Instagram. My my username is the far too clever for its own good progress in.
Ben
@progresspian And it is a combination of programmer and thespian combining my two things, but it has an extra s in there because I wanted to get the word. Progress because it's If it's got progress, it's got to be positive. It's got to be good.
Jessica
I love it. I love it. Okay, fine. This progress being online. Exactly.
Ben
It's one of those it's one of those words that I invented when I was in high school that felt real smart in high school. And now and it still lives on. Feels a little go either way now that I'm where I am.
Jessica
That's amazing. So connect with somebody else and then connect with. Then the only other thing I wanted to ask was moving forward. Where do you hope your work takes you? Yeah, in any and every way.
Ben
I mean, lots, lots of different ways. If I had a concrete answer to that, yes, I would probably be a happier person.
Jessica
That's okay. Magic wand. What are you doing?
Ben
I am continuing to make award winning game experiences. I'm continuing to be involved in theater and film in more traditional ways, and I'm continuing to create technological tools that enable non technical experts to use AI to create interactive media themselves.
Jessica
That's incredible. Anything else you want to add?
Ben
I think we covered everything and then some. But then, Jessica, you're such an inspiration. You're such a wonderful person and I am really, really honored to be here for so many reasons, not the least of which is I really admire you as someone who has such a clear artistic, like both clear artistic vision and then also the tools to actually execute on that vision and create things. And I think even though I'm very fortunate that I have created a few things, the, the that like, like we've chatted about the, like few projects that actually made it onto the pedestals of the art museum or most of my art museum. The wings are full of half finished of fitting quarter started barely started things not alone.
Yeah and I really admire your capacity for like actually bringing things into fruition and I, I and I admire your ability not only to do that for yourself, but to help teach and guide others to do that as well. And for all of the kind words and sage wisdom that you've given me in the past. And so just wanted her to thank. you for that on camera. Thank you so much.
Jessica
Thank you so much for a beautiful conversation.
Ben
Cheers.
Jessica
Join the community and share your creative challenges on Instagram and Facebook at Creators Cafe by Kiko Labs. And also check out my website, www.kikalabs.com to sign up for the mailing list. So you always know when a new podcast is released and to check out my coaching and digital courses to help you be a more confident and joyful creator.
Transcript: Bonus Episode
Jessica
In this bonus episode, my guest, Dr. Ben Samuel and I get the future of A.I. and storytelling. So first, check out his main episode, number eight if you haven’t yet, as these are excerpts from, our much longer conversation. But I wanted to include them because he gets into some really interesting details about the differences between types of A.I. storytelling creation and what we can do to keep A.I. a diverse and inclusive landscape, both from the tech side and the mindset and execution in our institutions and ourselves.
Jessica
So thank you for coming on this bonus journey with us. I appreciate you, and I think you're the best for me. What makes you really special is your deep love of storytelling and seeing how that love of humanity and interacting with people comes out through your connections. And what what I think is really interesting is when I think of computer scientist, I don't think heart centered lead focused on storytelling.
Jessica
That's just and that's my baggage. So I apologize for judging, pre-judging. But I think that's why hearing about your projects, which we'll go into in a little bit, is so fascinating to me because you really do come from this storytelling and prioritizing humanity standpoint, and especially with, you know, the segment after strike and we've been really talking about A.I..
Jessica
You are an AI specialist who specializes in storytelling and the humanity of it. Yes. And so just this whole the whole connective thread here for me of you taking these past experiences and then weaving them into your current art that is using the current technology, but for the best is just really exciting and fascinating.
Ben
Thank you.
Ben
Yeah, I, I mean, I guess just to touch on some of that, you I, I think I, I think that you are not necessarily wrong. I felt like there are a lot of computer scientists who don't necessarily put I don't know I don't exactly know how to phrase it, but I think I humble myself to say that perhaps I do bring a little bit of a unique perspective.
Ben
I think that oftentimes a people do tend to maybe pigeonhole themselves into like one particular title or one particular like path and and I and I think that, like, sometimes it starts very early. I think it starts very young and we like, identify ourselves by, oh, well, I, I am this and I am not that. And I think that it is a man.
Ben
I want to watch my words carefully here. I think I'm also like, I'm asking myself, what do I really believe? I definitely think it's the case that there were many people who either at a young age decide for themselves. I am technically minded or I am not technically minded. And so for the people who identify as technically minded, they are going to lean into maybe those like career roles or career trajectories, like being a computer scientist, and they'll maybe feel a little, you know, uncomfortable or like it's outside of their identity or comfort zone doing more like artistic things and vice versa.
Ben
I think people who decide for themselves, Oh, I'm not interested in that. Or I think even I think not being interested in something is totally fine. Sadly, in the field of computer science, I think there are many people who identify as like not being good enough or not being smart enough to like, go into that. And that is something that I try to like push back against.
Ben
Yeah, anybody's capable. Yeah. They if they want to and they might not.
Ben
Want to and say okay.
Ben
But, but, but I yeah I guess I, I try to lead by example a little bit that this is a false dichotomy as to actually like interweave with each other really really beautifully like and.
Jessica
Complement each other and.
Ben
Complement each other. Yeah. To be a computer scientist is to in some ways be an artist is to be a problem solver. It's to think of creative solutions to things. And if you're building a I mean, my background is specifically in game development, but, but if you're building any piece of software to think of a way, bring something into existence that did not exist before.
Ben
I mean, that.
Jessica
Is a creator.
Ben
Exactly. Absolutely.
Ben
Yeah. And so I.
Jessica
Think you belong in this chair for like five reasons.
Ben
Thank you. I'm very happy that I haven't convinced you otherwise.
Jessica
I also need to say that I am being unfair because I. One of my brothers, Chris. Hello. Chris is an amazing computer scientist as well, and so he is wildly, emotionally touched in and it's intelligent. And so I definitely know that there you can have both. And it is a false dichotomy. Yes. I find myself, interestingly enough, you know, it's just on a Zoom video call with my family.
Jessica
Hello? Hi, Dad. I say I'm and all three of them, I am the fourth less least techie person in the call. They are all wildly more talented than me and so I always have a little bit of a imposter syndrome in the tech world because of how talented my family is. And so I think I lean more into the emotional intelligence.
Jessica
Whereas whenever I'm in artistic situations, a lot of times I get praise for how amazing my technical skills are. And I, I know they are a but I'm, I'm, I'm a committed learner and I'm fast at learning things. And so I can, in fact, pick things up quickly. Yeah. And so I just wonder, you know, how many, how many women, how many artists stay out of technical sides of things because they don't see themself in that role.
Jessica
So I'd love to dig into that.
Ben
Yeah. So, okay, first of all, I do want to just say that like, being talented at anything is like all relative. There's always going to be someone better at you than is saying and always someone that you're going to be better at anything. So I definitely not sell yourself short. Jessica It sounds to me like you probably are extremely technically minded and so, so good job.
Ben
And then.
Ben
The the, the other thing about, I guess, representation of women in computer science. Absolutely agree that that is a huge problem. And I think that it is this kind of sadly self-fulfilling, vicious cycle of there aren't necessarily as many women in the field as men. And so women growing up don't see themselves in those roles. And so they kind of like veer away from them, which then just sort of, you know, keeps the problem going.
Ben
I don't think there's an incredibly simple solution this. I mean, I think, you know, making sure that, you know, institutions hire more women is certainly a very important intervention that needs to happen. I know that something that I tried very hard to do in the classroom is design my classes in such a way where I try not to, I don't know, breed an era of toxicity.
Ben
Sometimes I think there can be this almost toxic mindset of either you have it or you don't. You're good enough, or not good enough. And I try to really create a sense of community and collaboration amongst my students. It's hard. It's hard for everybody. You're not doing yourself or anyone around you any favors if you have this kind of false macho attitude of, Oh, this is so natural to me.
Ben
If instead everybody kind of leans into and embraces the vulnerability of being stuck or scared or feeling dumb and using that as a tool to kind of create that sense of camaraderie of like, you're struggling with this. Me too. Amazing. Let's figure it out together. Mm hmm. I mean, I don't necessarily know if that helps, you know, women more than men, but I am trying to just create environments of inclusivity.
Jessica
Yeah, well, I think that's so important. And also, it sounds like you're really focused on a growth mindset. Yes. Which is something that we all can benefit from and allows us to see ourselves in different arenas. Something that we've talked about just a little bit is the differences in the kinds of AI. So something you talked about beautifully was there's when we think of chat t, we think of, you know, it goes and learns a bunch of facts and, and then when I ask chat GPT a question, it decides it looks at all of that information and filters it from the I give it, but it's really just kind of a filter of existing information.
Jessica
Correct. And we don't really know how that works. And that's part of makes it interesting and also could be kind of scary.
Ben
Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica
But your work is very different, right? Yes. Yes. And the symbolic nature and the rules being kind of based in an anthropological and psychological model.
Ben
Yes, absolutely. Jessica.
Ben
Thank you so much. So, yeah, whereas Chad, Djibouti and other large language models or things of that nature are sort of black boxes of the work in AI that I do is less focused on the sort of machine learning branch of AI and is more the symbolic approach that generally speaking, is more in turn irritable and like, you know, we don't have to get down into this, but in the, you know, academic, you know, debate right now, the interpretability of AI is like of major concern.
Jessica
In that that's referring to how it got the answer to that.
Ben
Exactly. Yeah yes.
Ben
Like like how what what what went into the answer that we got so that we can actually understand the biases that might be latent in the underlying model.
Ben
That produced those answers.
Jessica
And for that's listening something that you have said in the past that helped me to understand this was basically for the GPT model. We call that systematic or what we call.
Ben
Statistical or.
Jessica
Thank you. So if we call that statistical, basically it's represented by numbers that to our eyes would look random. And so we can't know what information is in each little packet there. Is that kind of true?
Ben
Is absolutely true ish.
Ben
I would it's probably beyond the scope of this podcast. Yeah.
Ben
To dive too deep into.
Ben
That but but yes like there's definitely like a representation that is just like honest to gosh, like not capable of being interpreted by humans in these models that get created. We can like, understand the algorithms that produce the models. Yeah, and certainly we can understand the output that the models create. But the model itself is this like unknowable thing.
Ben
But it just so happens that when this very.
Ben
Particular set of.
Ben
Unknowable numbers are arranged in just this.
Ben
Way, then where do we put in this input? We actually get output that we really like, and so we just accept that I guess this is a good model that's wild. It's it.
Ben
Is crazy.
Jessica
So there's kind of two sides of that. There's the unknowable nature of that. But then there's also the limits of the dataset. Yes. Being things that already preexisted and probably are historical and not necessarily representative of what we currently want to go to. And so we see this happening in our creative industries sometimes of happening with models being by AI for diversity, but they're pulling from really grossly outdated or racist and sexist models too.
Jessica
Then it's just perpetuating some pretty horrible things that.
Ben
Exactly perpetuates it. And yet, because.
Ben
People can kind of like point out, Oh, well, the algorithm did it, our computer did it, therefore it must be right. And like.
Ben
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, like.
Ben
It is drawing from data. Very much so, like was determined purely by humans in the past. And like, humans, of course, are capable of bias and error, either ignorance or flat out maliciousness. And then also, like the algorithms itself that produce those models made by humans. So so there is.
Ben
A lot of a lot.
Ben
Of humanity at play, even in these technical processes.
Ben
Yeah. And for good and for ill. Yeah.
Jessica
And then you had talked about a hiring process that kind of perpetuated that. Could you just touch on that?
Ben
I mean, this is just like one of many examples. Yeah but like Amazon did they to my knowledge, they do not do this anymore. But there was a moment where they were experimenting with like an AI model to help make hiring decisions. So, you know, they created the model based on previous people that they had hired saying, Oh, well, these are the people that we hired.
Ben
So these are the types of people that we were excited about. And then now that they have this model, in theory, they can input new resumes and instead of having to.
Ben
Laboriously.
Ben
Interview all these people or look through these things, they can just have the model, have the machine say, Oh, we should give this person an interview or Oh, no, this person's not going to be a good fit for us which in theory sounds like it would save the company. Long time Doesn't sound bad. But again, if you're drawing from historical data that has biases in it.
Ben
And so as was the case in this situation, their historical hires tended, as you say, to be racist and sexist or misogynistic. It just meant that, like the qualities that they were looking at in the new recipes weren't actually there. Honest to gosh, qualifications. It wasn't things like, Oh, how many years of programing experience you have or what previous titles have you had?
Ben
It was looking at like ridiculous things that should not make an impact. Like, Oh, is this is this a name that is commonly associated with women basically.
Ben
Or something like that because.
Ben
Historically they weren't hiring.
Ben
Yeah.
Ben
As, as an example.
Jessica
And I thought that example was really useful for me because actually it's just the machines showing us what we typically do as humans. And so there's actually something kind of cool there that it's showing us, Hey, you are making decisions based on what's happened in worked in the past and you're blinding yourself to who's not at the table.
Ben
Absolutely. But but, but it's more.
Ben
Textural, this idea of like interpretability, like it's not immediately obvious that it is, in fact.
Ben
Even doing that because.
Ben
Oh, all you see is the output of like, yes, hire this person or know don't hire this person. And then it.
Ben
Takes.
Ben
Someone kind of doing an intervention and like looking at, oh, my gosh, like, I.
Ben
Think I'm detecting a pattern here to kind of.
Ben
Realize that like, oh, maybe our model is looking at elements of the resume that we don't actually want it to be caring about.
Ben
But but yes, in theory, once we get to a point where we're.
Ben
Able to better interpret the actual thought process behind this, and there is research that is being done in interpreting interminable AI and human in the loop, AI, things like that. Then yes, absolutely. I think it can do a really good job of shutting that spotlight and maybe.
Ben
Helping helping us be better, this problem.
Jessica
Yeah, yeah. I think that's like a cool way that AI is maybe not on purpose, but is helping us kind of see our blind spots as humans. Absolutely. But what's really interesting to me about the work you do is it's actually in the symbolic side of AI. Yes. And how does that differ in you've talked about how it's instead kind of being a blind, you know, black box that we can't see into.
Jessica
You can go into the code, I think it is, and be able to see like I had this output. So then you can change the rules and adapt them and see where it's going.
Ben
Exactly. Yeah. And so there are there are tradeoffs between the two and there are certainly, like people that, you know, feel very passionately one way or the other. With symbolic AI, there's a lot more kind of authoring effort involved. There's kind of a higher upfront cost because you're not just scraping a lot of like initial data essentially to power your model.
Ben
You're in some ways you're creating it from scratch. If you will, for each new project. And on the one hand, some people might turn their nose up at that and say, Oh, well, that sounds awfully laborious and tedious, but for me, I think it works very nicely because what it actually means is that the process of creating this A.I. system or creating a you know project or game or what have you that is powered by the AI system is an honest to gosh like act of authoring, like you are actually creating the the rules that govern the system and that then becomes an opportunity of self-expression.
Ben
It becomes an opportunity of storyteller. So one of the ideas this isn't necessarily a game that I worked on, but me and self, several of my colleagues in the expression Intelligence studio developed an AI system called comma info, which roughly translates to like what? What is proper or what as it should be like in terms of like etiquette.
Ben
And it's a system that enables non expert authors or like non technical expert authors to write rules that can then inform the behavior of A.I. characters.
Jessica
Oh, so you could so I could come in and kind of create a sub world that characters and rules and I could bring my story to yours?
Ben
That is exactly right. And that's one of the big sort of like, I don't know, like, like agendas of my research is trying to enable as many people to tell their stories as possible in. This domain that like, sometimes feels inaccessible, that sometimes feels like, oh, well, in order to do that, I need a page science and I want to.
Jessica
I just need to be friends with someone. Yeah, I feel so in computer science.
Ben
So, so.
Ben
So like, like one project that I've worked on, the V Space project, which is in collaboration with Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge, but also through the University of Nuns in France is a project that is reconstructing a 18th century Parisian theater that burned down. So we don't really have a lot of historical documents of it. And the project, the space project, is reconstructing it in virtual reality, not only architecturally, so not, you know, poring through the limited visuals that we have and try to create like a virtual 3D model of it, but also reconstructing it socially, if you will.
Ben
So as part of that project, we had workshops, we gathered together French scholars, French historians, French literary experts, people who don't have a background in computer science, but who are better equipped than maybe anybody else to be able to understand and speak to French propriety the era.
Jessica
So that, oh, that's perfect. And it's such a good example of there really were social rules that we can then program into the system. And you have built the structure to take that.
Ben
Exactly.
Ben
Exactly. And so we gathered.
Ben
These people to encode these rules and then use that to.
Ben
Inform the behavior of the characters.
Ben
Yes.
Ben
VR game.
Jessica
I think that's so fascinating. And we've talked about the possibilities of like, you know, using on a sci fi script. And so then it can kind of interpolate the the scientific experts could put in information and then the narrative could go in. And what's possible in this world can combine and give us more information.
Ben
Absolutely. So so.
Ben
Yeah, so, so different people with their different sets of expertise can kind.
Ben
Focus on different elements. You kind of like.
Ben
Throw it all in the air part, if you will tell it to go.
Ben
And then like see what comes out. And also have there be like, you know, interactivity, like where players or users like actually engage with the characters and have them be informed by, again, the rules that all of these actors represent. And because it's this more symbolic thing, if you ever see something that seems problematic or unintentional or surprise, then I guess first of all, I should say oftentimes surprises delightful.
Ben
Yeah, I'm surprised is not always problematic.
Ben
Surprises beautiful. But because we can trace things back to these rules. We can always see, oh, this is why characters behaved in this particular way. Yeah. And then you as like the author of the system, can decide for yourself, Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Like. Like, am I happy that my system surprised me in this way?
Ben
Or this a sign that I actually need to kind of like go back in and like add more safeguards to like, you know, a sometimes I think of it as almost like an act of like sculpture. Like, like, yeah, sculpt the possibilities space of the simulation so that it's only capable of.
Ben
Presenting things that adhere to my artistic vision.
Jessica
That's beautiful. Yeah, absolutely. You're giving it the less beautifully, like the guide rails.
Ben
Oh, sure.
Jessica
Yes. This. This behavior. You get to explore this sandbox, but not outside of the sandbox.
Ben
Yes. Correct.
Jessica
Okay. Yes. Really interesting. Or if in my sci fi example, we learn something about the rules of science or we have a discovery, we can go back in and without throwing the whole scrapping whole project, you can go in and make an adjustment to the rules if you get new information.
Ben
Yeah, if I mean, I mean.
Ben
If, if I'm understanding like if that new information.
Ben
Sparks.
Ben
Like a new idea of like, oh, that's really.
Ben
Great. Let's like.
Ben
Create additional like, like.
Ben
Like, let's.
Ben
Let characters be like, care more about this.
Ben
Particular thing.
Ben
You can go in and Yeah.
Jessica
Oh, that's very cool. Join the community and share your creative challenges on Instagram and Facebook at Creators Cafe by Kika Labs and also check out my website www.kikalabs.com to sign up for the mailing list. So you always know when a new podcast is released and to check out my coaching and digital courses help you be a more confident and joyful creator.
